Good Bad Bad Good
A podcast not about good movies, and not about bad movies. Listen in and join us as we discuss mediocrity. New episodes every other Thursday! Follow us on all social media: @GoodBad_BadGood
Hosted by: Travis Orozco and Kailena Mai
Good Bad Bad Good
33: KINDS OF KINDNESS PART 1 - His Wife Does Boat Stuff
This week we have not one but TWO episodes to cover 2024's KINDS OF KINDNESS. This was film producer Chris Register's pick of the week.
Let us know what you think of this movie and what you think it all means.
Tune in 2 weeks from now for EMELIA PEREZ.
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Hey Everyone. We actually have a lot to say about this film, So we decided to break it into two parts. Part one will end after we talk about the second vignette of the film Part two will pick up from there. Thanks! look at him. Look how he's acting with that suspect. As if they just fucked for the first time. And he knows how to tell him that he loves him. Help him. He's your friend. Hey, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of good, bad, bad, good. My name is Travis Roscoe. With me, as always, is Kylie to me. And this week we have a wonderful, wonderful guest with us. You're wonderful. Wonderful. Yes, you wonderful, wonderful. We have with us. Chris. Chris, why don't you introduce yourself too? My name is Chris Register. I am, I love movies. I love, it's a good start talking about them. I, I like making them a little bit. A little bit. I don't know. I don't know what else to say, but Chris is an indie film producer. That's right. So please send me send him your scripts that you want him to pay for and produce for you. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. His inbox is always open. All the money. I have nothing but money to give for short movies that won't make any back. He actually inherited $1 billion. So please don't just reach out to him on all sides. I know, I would actually love if you just started getting a crew of scripts and people giving you budgets of like, this is how much this one will cost. If you could pay 90% of what my media things look like, where's the money coming from? All of them. Someone sends you this script, but like, the character limit ends on Instagram, so it's just a bunch of different messages. Okay? Like the ending on the screen. Instagram screenshot. Oh, yeah. Just screenshots. Yeah. That's great. No. But Chris is a, wonderful, wonderful producer who has produced a few short films now, including ties in. Yes, woo woo. That's why we like ventrally. We'll be. Yeah, that's why we're twinning today. That's only for the video audience. And this week's, episode, Chris actually picked 2020 four's kind. Is it kind of kind of. It's kind of kindness. Kind of kind. I always want to say kind of kindness, not kinds of kindness. I always forget the s. Wait, you say, what kind of kindness? Oh, well, there are three kind. There are three kindness in this movie. Yeah. Yes. Okay. Like, if you say so. And let's give everyone a plot synopsis. Hey, Google, what is the plot synopsis of the film? Kinds of kindness. Here's the synopsis of Kinds of Kindness. Three stories revolve around a man who tries to take control of his own life, a policeman whose wife seems like a different person, and a woman who searches for someone with a special ability. Yeah, I mean, that's technically correct. So, it's interesting that she brings up how she, she started the summary by saying three stories about about a man trying to find his way or hope or whatever she could. Yeah. Yeah. Right. But then the last story is actually about a woman. Yeah. And I feel as though every single time I think about this film in some way, I think I have figured it out. And then I immediately have a contradicting thought. Thought from the story. I'm like, nope, that's not what they meant by that. But before we get into all that, we need verdicts. Chris, since you picked this and you loved this, please tell us what your verdict is for this film. No, this is my good, bad, bad, good partner. Yes, yes. And you can also tell us why. For you. What the good and the bad mean. Well, question one can I, can I can I punch my particular answer till the end of this or do I, do I need to give it to you now? Nope. No, you got to do it now. But you can change. You can. Okay. Yes. So it's like here's what you initially thought. And then we discussed the film. And then it's like did did it change after discussion of the film. I'll answer this in a slightly roundabout way. The I seen this movie a couple times now, and, I have a lot of thoughts about it, mostly positive, because I've seen it a handful times, and there's a reason for that. But the reason that I chose it for this particular thing is because it is a very divisive movie. Especially, considering that the person who made it just made less than a year ago, like this astounding Oscar winning movie called Poor Things. And so for him to turn around and make this, that is not nearly the thing that that was, I thought was in it, the two people I saw it with separately, we had lots and lots of talk about, not all of it on the same page. If I have to choose one thing, I do think it is a good movie. I think there's a flawed good movie. So I guess I probably puts it that in the bad good category. Is that right? Yeah, yeah. So that's my short answer. Yeah. For short long answer. Okay, I like that, I like that I'm going to have to agree. I thought this was a bad, good movie. Well yeah. Yeah. We'll see if that changes by the end. But that's what I'm going for. I don't think we are all going to be saying the same thing, but I classify it differently. I'm going to say it's a good, bad movie in that it was very good and I loved it. But there were flaws. Okay. What you're saying okay. Travis and I realized at some time that we were we were we flopped the way that it was looked at. That makes sense. Yeah. And also for you and for all the listeners, viewers at home, these are arbitrary to some extent. It's literally just to get the conversation going. Absolutely. And at the end of the day, we're just talking about a film that we loved or didn't know is either a good or bad. You have to stick to it. This is the internet. People will remember your decision five years from now. This is the country and world of black and white thinking. Yep. And we have to make sure that we stick to what we say. This is why I try to not make a decision right away. So can I punt it, please can I please can we just start with we please. So each week, each episode, we break down the movie into three different categories. The first one being story slash, script slash narrative structure of the film. I guess we should just kind of talk about how this is set up, because it is rather unique, as opposed to just a straight narrative is very unique. It's essentially three vignettes or three separate stories. I will say that I had I did not know that. Did you know that going to it? Yeah. This was the first. Did you know that going into it the very first time I did? No, that wasn't the first time. Yes. So Chris has seen it three times. This is my third time. And Travis and I, this was our first time. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So no, no idea going into it, but I kind of I do this with most movies, but specifically Yorgos Lanthimos. I just love his films. And so I, I, I like to go into things even not really watching the trailer, just like I just want to see the film, not know anything about it, watch the film. So that's what I did this time, I couldn't I remember having seen the trailer. I couldn't remember anything from the trailer except for Emma Stone dancing, because that they like and I remember that the vibe of the trailer gave me a different idea of what this was compared to what it was. I mean, it well, one, how do you even market this film? First of all, to the trailer? Does nothing like it. Like, well, it tells us nothing, you know, but like it's all yeah, no, no, no, no, 100% and then going yeah. And like that's what I'm saying. Like the trailers just so it, it's pointless for this film. Also explain the plot of each of those shorts. It still wouldn't give you an idea. Right, right right right right right right. Yeah. So Google over there had the best idea about the surface of this. And that's basically all you can start with right. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean the first the first story is called RMF. The death of RMF. Yeah. It's someone's initials. Well I mean I guess we don't really know that do we. Well we do we know that in the first in in the first one. Yes. Yeah. But it's an acronym for all three. But he's also in all three. Yeah. Agreed. But we don't know that those are his initials. Don't we see that it's I mean, I think we do. I think we do. Yeah. Because each thing is, is each title is explaining RMF doing something. So I imagine it's a character doing something. So it initials. Yes we do in the first one obviously because it's embroidered on the shirt. It's like a first. Right. And it's and then and then the second one is RMF goes flying and then the third one is RMF. It's a sandwich. So so we are talking about a noun which is a person place or thing. So we're talking about a person. I also want to point out that in the second one RMF is flying. He's a helicopter pilot. And then the last one does he the sandwich I haven't seen the credits yet I didn't I couldn't figure out who he was in the second one. But maybe if I watched this movie once or twice more, I did feel like because I watched this movie today and I was like, damn, this is the type of movie that I wish I had seen multiple times before having that conversation, because I was like, I feel like there's so many things that I would pick up at the same time. That's what most of my notes. Thank you for all of the weird. Thank you for pointing that out, because I was just about to say, jumping ahead. I wanted to know who was here the same way because I don't know who he was. Well, who the hell is he? Yeah. No no no no. Yeah. But like, you had made the point of like, he's in all three. I was about to say, like, is he like, I didn't see him in the second one. The third one, he's the dead guy in the end, right? Correct. Correct. Yeah. But does he. Actor. Yes. At the very end, after the credits roll, he's sitting at the burger stand eating sandwich because now he's alive. Literally at the end of the like ordering of the credits. No. During the the full movie film credits. Right. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Because because like then he has its own set of credits. Yeah. But this is the movie's credits. Yes. Yeah. Because yes, he's been resurrected at the end. Yeah. Okay. So let's go through a brief, brief synopsis of each story. The first one, The Death of RMF, is about a guy played by Jesse Plemons, who is essentially doing everything that Willem Dafoe's character. I'm blanking on their names right now. And because it's all energy. Raymond. First. Raymond. Yeah. Yeah. Raymond. It's another fun point out that Robert and Raymond, all three main characters in that first movie, there's initials are RF. We don't know their middle names, but we can assume maybe that their middle names are M. But we don't know. I think Willem Dafoe is Raymond freshman. Jesse Plemons is Robert Fletcher. And then, when we eventually meet Emma Stone, she's Rita Fanning. Ruth Moritz, interesting. I did not I did the details. Rewatch. No. Yeah. Good, good good I kept I like I try not to pause a movie too many times, but, but I do find myself pausing movies for this when I'm watching them for specifically this podcast, because I, I pause and I don't know what was said. And then I have to, like, write something down. So I caught some details, but that one was definitely not one. I, I did go, oh, they all have. I didn't get the f I, I caught that they all had first names starting with R, but I did not. Each of them is really only said like literally once in that. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. I didn't catch their I didn't catch I mean catch. They were all first. Yeah. I did not know because I was more like what the hell is going on of course. But that's like in all of his movies where you have to like extend your disbelief recognition to some extent. World. I can think this one is a little bit more absurd than like The favorite, which is personally my favorite Yorgos film. Yeah. Oh, that is a great film. Oh my gosh. So this is more in line with, I mean, just talking in his voice of movies like his last two movies are written by Tony McNamara. So like they have a very they have a similarity to them. Poor things in The favorite. But The Lobster and, Killing of a Sacred Deer and this movie were all written by someone else whose name I forgot. And it's him. It's him. Him. And. Yeah. Yorgos. And something that sounds very Greek. That sounds right. F the f f the mise Filippo for Philip. You, Yeah. That person. Yep. All three of these movies and maybe some of those early movies too, were all written like. So it's a different tone, but much more in. Yes, but much more in line with, like, killing of a Sacred Deer or the lobster. Yeah. Which are actually the lobster is maybe my favorite. I loved the favorite, but the lobster is like that movie, just that I think that movie I watched when I really was first starting to become more of like a film watcher, to watch films and really recognize them as pieces of art and stories that were much more about shaping the way I thought about things, rather than just like pure entertainment. And so it was a perfect moment in time when I saw that movie and I was like, oh, what did I just watch? This is a great don't think I saw killing of the sacred. Oh, it's a good movie, too. It's it's darker. Yeah. Just like this is darker. I actually, I kept I kept, after watching this movie since we're talking about sort of plot and, and all of that, the theme kept coming up for me of his movies in general, and especially the last couple, even poorer things. I feel like he really, does stories. Part of the reason I love him as a director and a filmmaker is because it's very clear to me that there is a purpose, there is a theme, there's something he's trying to say, which is what I always ask myself at the end of a film, like, what is this about? And with his movies, I very much feel like, he kind of plays in the world of, like, humans being slaves to our own desires and like, how far will we go to get the to meet the end of our desire, right? Or to get our desires met? Essentially. Who will we follow? What will we what will what extremes will we go to? And a lot of times that desire is love or to be loved. But I feel like it's the theme kind of across the board in all of his films. And I really felt that in this one. But sometimes, like in Poorer things, we get to the end of it and the theme is very similar, but there's almost like, that felt very optimistic. Whereas with the end of this one, there was a and we never get our desires met, so fuck everything. It was very nihilistic feeling to me. And it's sad to see you say that. I agree with that. I. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Do you want it. Do you want to. You were about the you jumped in first. Well no I was about to say that I feel like everyone got what they wanted at the end of each of them. At least the first two. Yeah, for sure. The first two. And I was going to say, I feel like the second story completely throws a wrench into that. Wait. Because what desire was he trying to get in the like in the, in the in the second one, like the second one in my opinion, was also my favorite, which was, oh, he does. That's right. Because Emma Stone comes at the end. Yeah. Right. Oh that's right. He gets his wife back the second was also my favorite the first time I saw it. I don't know if that's still true, but so that was the one I grabbed on to the most. But it's still whether whether you he's still exploring the same theme. It was rewarded. He got the thing that he was going after in the second one. But how does that tie into desire? He just desires his wife to come back. Well, he he wants this. He wants this thing. And instead of, like anybody else might. But by this, I mean it's his wife. His wife. Yes. And instead, like anybody else might go, no, I, my wife is back. Like an admission of like here he he he wouldn't let go of the fact that this isn't his wife because he didn't want it to be his wife. He was also in the end, right. But there is some like. Well, I don't know, maybe. Maybe I'm. No, no. Yes, John. Because now I'm like, is that about desire or or is that about belief in should we Because these are three separate movies. Yes. Yes. Because we kind of take them one by sort of dying. I think that's because we were about to get into messy territory. Yeah. And I was about to say like that, I with each of these stories, I go down the same rabbit hole of like, I think I have figured out this theme or I think I've figured out what they're trying to say. Well, I was more talking about the theme of his films. Sure, sure, sure sure, sure. I, I feel like are always exploring this sort of, yeah. Like, humans being slaves to their own desires. And in fact, the first of these. So here. Well, let's just talk about let's talk about the first one. The first one, as you said, called death of RMF, is, essentially about a guy named Robert whose life is dictated by his boss, Raymond. Within the first ten minutes of that short, one of this, one of these dictates, Robert finally stand his ground. So I'm not going to do this. He wants him to. His boss wants him to ram into some guy's car to kill him. Be responsible for someone else's life. That's like his his. That's his line in his life, right? Yeah. Yeah. And, and then, you know, the the most of the bulk of that short is the consequences of him saying no to this very powerful person who's been dictating his life. Right? So let's. Yeah, I don't know. Let's start there. I guess as far as the plot goes for that one, where do we want to I don't know, where do we want to start? I've got so many, like, detailed notes. Let's start here at work. It's like, you know. Yeah. So I mean, I think we could go through the because I want to say this is also the shortest of the three. It definitely felt the shortest to me at least. I don't know. I didn't look at the actual time hours I did, but it's it's about 15 minutes, about 50 minutes. So it's not the shortest of the three I think. But I think no, I think the middle one is the shortest. Yeah. But they're close. They're all within like yeah, they're all like 40 to 50 ish minutes. Yeah. Because this is a two hour and 45 minutes. Almost three hours. Yeah. He even has a wife that he got or like he married off of the instructions of his boss. Yeah. His boss dictated his. Yeah. His wife. And how many times I like that we're calling him his boss because he feels like technically. Technically, but is but it. But see, it almost feels like I wonder what kind of work he actually does, because we don't actually see that. We do know he's an architect, right? They mentioned a construction site. Yeah. So the firm was some sort of construction developer. And when he meets Rita, he asks Rita if she's also an architect. Yes. Which you're like, oh, interesting. But that the symbolism of like, that job in general is sort of I mean, is there symbolism in there? Yeah, sure. Like if if he's an architect, like he's building this guy's life for him. Yeah. The design of of human life and how to it's also architecture is structured. Right. It's very like you have to adhere to these blueprints to build this thing accurately. Yes. Here's your blueprint of what you need to eat for the day. Here's the alcohol you are to have to drink. Here's the time you're supposed to have sex with your wife. Yes. Like yes. And and you can't have children, so make sure. So yeah, the themes the are there were things going through all three of these stories. But it started in this one with food, sex and something else I wrote down that just continued to tie in of like food was a very important thing throughout all of them, throughout all of them. And it started in this one. Sex, was, there was a big element of sex, even though we didn't necessarily like, we didn't see it in this one. We recognized that he's having sex every morning with his wife at 8:30 a.m., and she has gotten pregnant several times, and he has basically made her have an abortion without her knowledge of it. She thinks she keeps getting miscarriages because he's sprinkling the abortion pill into her morning coffee when he finds out she's pregnant. So that was a really interesting thing, too, because the theme of like, sex and procreation sort of is throughout. I would also say that sex is used, there are lots of control issues throughout this movie about just like in their sexualized characters. Yes. Whether it's in the first one where he's it's dictated when when they can, when they can have sex and including when they can sex and when they can have sex, when they can sex, when they can sex, when they can sex and when they can child tie the exact title of this episode when they can't sex. I actually thought it was very interesting that they that they chose to go that route of like, he had to be sneaky and do these abortion pills because, like, there's obviously an easier solution to this, right? And it's just having a vasectomy like, but but eventually they might want him to have children. Yeah, sure I guess. What was it weird I was trying to say is like the interesting, the interesting aspect of these stories or, well, don't quote me on it, because I'm sure we could probably find something that completely contradicts what I'm about to say. But I did love that. Like we were. Essentially, it felt as though we were holding up a mirror to these men, and that these men were actually pretty terrible. And it's a way of critiquing, like masculinity and men and like how selfish men can be and not caring about the others in their life and how their decisions hurt them. And like, affect them. And I also thought that about the second one, but like, we'll get to that one shortly. But I thought it was interesting how like the why like the women in the first one are just like, not I don't even know what the right word is for it. They're just they're more passive. Yeah, they're supporting characters. Yeah. They're in these men's lives. His wife, for sure. So, long shows. Yeah. Yeah. White. The character for sure. So Robert's wife, is definitely subservient. And everything she says is, oh, I did this thing. I called the boss, you know? What do you need? She's she's very much like that. But then eventually, we meet Emma Stone's character, Rita. Rita. Rita, who is under the same regiment that Jesse Plemons character Robert is under from Raymond. She's under the same. Sort of like, do this at this time, eat this, drink that. And and we are we I don't I don't see a world where we hold her up to be like, she's someone undergoing the same control level of control by this guy, but she's not. I don't think she's brought up to be. She's. I don't think you can easily say that she's. She's a monster. Like like some of the things Robert has had to do would make him. Although she drives into this guy, she just to kill him with the intention of killing him. He doesn't die. But she does drive into this. And that's I think that goes back to the the thing that I was sort of going over in my mind, the desire issue of like, these characters desire something. And Raymond's character, these characters meaning Rita and Robert and Raymond's character is like, it's we don't we don't know what the desire necessarily is. We just know that they believe that Raymond holds the key to to whatever the secret of life is to a very guru, very God like. Because this plays very much in, in, like religious themes of like, and so, so, you know, I feel like they were godlike characters in all of these. But Raymond, for sure is that godlike character in the first one. And these people are just doing what is told to that they need to do in order to what. And that's the thing that was that was the big question mark for me is like, what are they doing these things for? Exactly. So I don't have an answer to that per se, but I should I should thank I think there was a really, there's a fascinating scene. So like again, just like catching up on the plot. You know, Robert at some point says, I'm not going to crash into this guy with my car. He might die. I don't want to be your sponsor for someone's life that ends this relationship immediately. So with with Robert and Raymond, Raymond says, you can go. You are set free. He I think he even uses the words you're free can live your life however you want. You can fuck when you want. You can even says you can keep the car and you can keep the house. That's why you can go, go do your thing and there's a scene not long after that where, he's at this bar that they've been to once or twice as like fancy hotel looking bar and where it's been dictate what he can drink before. Now he's drinking double Johnnie Walker is he's just like, Oh, no, no, no, that was the only thing he was ever dictated to drink. So when he gets to the bar, I'm sorry. That's what he gets to the bar. He doesn't know what, and he's like, what? He's the guy, says the bartender. So what can I get you? I don't know, what do you recommend? I don't know, do you want to want and and he just cannot make a decision. Right. And and I and it was I don't know what he wanted that all of that character wanted in a grand scheme. But I know that he was unable to make decisions on his own. And that I think, was the, I think what if we want to if we want to talk about what he wants? I think it's answered an inverse of he wants. He wants someone to want someone to tell him what to do. He wants some guidance. Yes, in this way. And he just can't because he just can't do it on his own. There's a lot of, I'm glad you brought up, like, biblical stuff. I think it's really easy to to think of, like, the Raymond character as a as a God figure or a cult leader or, it's it's easy to go there. Yeah. And and with that framing in mind, when I was watching this again, I noticed a couple things. One, everything in that first part of that, in that first short is, choreographed, manipulated, like like Raymond knows everybody. That doctor you went to, he's a great doctor. He knows the bartender knows exactly what Robert is supposed to have. At one point, he comes in and he says, had, like, like a Johnnie Walker. But he's been told to drink, something nonalcoholic. And the bartender is like. And he's like, fine, I'll have a Shirley Temple. No, no, he'll have a, a, Virgin Mary because I just, it cracked me up because when the bartender like, pulls that up and sets it down, my first thought was no fucking way. That's way too quick. And then he goes, well, that was very quick. I just like that was one moment where I, like, audibly laughed aloud because I was like, so I bring this up because I think, like the vibes, a vibe that I didn't put on this the first time that I watch this was. But it has this sort of at least this this short has this sort of Truman Show vibe of like, ever like there is this control about literally everything. But I also took a step further and said, there's also sort of like a job story here, where, you know, the job story of, like, God is going to like this guy who just worships God, and God's going to just wreck his life and just assume he's going to come back to him. And and there's I don't know if it's it's not exactly an inverse. It's not exactly the same thing. But like this idea that that this Raymond character will say, you're going to do this, you're going to do that, you're going to do this, you're going to do that. And if you don't, you have nothing right? Like I am everything that you have. And if you're not going to listen to me enjoy life without me, and so and I think like that sort of I don't know that that. No, I think that's absolutely that story. Especially because by the end of this. So just to further the plot along, Raymond is unleashed and can't figure out anything for himself and, goes about trying to do all of these things, nothing is working out. So he comes begging back to, oh, I'm sorry, Robert, is what I meant. He comes begging back to Raymond. Raymond says, no, I'm won't have you. You're out on your own. More bad stuff happens. So it comes back again. Please, Raymond. No, I won't have you. More bad stuff happens until he. Until he decides the thing. The line that he wasn't able to cross in the beginning, which was killing this other person. If he then runs over with his car in the hospital parking lot, twice to make sure that he's dead. And then comes back to Raymond. And that's when Raymond is like, good boy Raymond and his wife. And then he. I don't think she's his wife, but, like, whatever, whatever. Whatever it is. Yeah. Margot Kelly, the character I want to I want to add a quick thing in between there, because what would that been? A plot synopsis leaves out. Yes, he does do that. That's how that ends. Is that what he couldn't do? So when he meets Rita again, Emma Stone's character. Yeah, he becomes a little obsessed with her because he sees that she is also palling around with Raymond, and he quickly discovers that Raymond is telling her exactly what to do in the same way, and the and the reason that he goes and does what he does and, in the hospital and runs over this guy, he could do in the first place is because she successfully did, like she didn't kill him. But yes. And the, the, the goal was never to kill him. The goal was to run into him very fast with your car. He might die. He might get seriously injured. That's cool. Basically, says Raymond. Wait, really? Because that that's what he did was the goal is not to kill him. Robert says I might kill him if I do this. And and Raymond says that might happen. He's prepared for that. The goal is that to kill this guy, the goal is to do this very dangerous thing. Yeah, I disagree with that because he did do that though. He ran. He eventually does. No, no no no. He he rammed his car into him in the intersection. Correct. But but Raymond comes back and says that's not fast enough. Well, Raymond's what Raymond's instructions were. And you kind of see this again, like the way they talked about afterwards. Raymond, the instructions are run into this guy. And make sure you go to the hospital. And it's why in the in the beginning of the movie, Jesse Plemons only has, like, a scratch. He's like, oh, I need to go to the hospital. He's so insistent on going to the hospital, even though he does not need to, because that was the direction that Raymond gave him. Right. But then the interesting that you go to the hospital. Right. But then the interesting thing is that he comes back into Raymond's good graces by actually killing this guy, because that's the thing that he was afraid of doing that Raymond clocked. And so to get back into Raymond's good graces, he has to cross his threshold, which is killing this guy at this point anyways, because Rita's already done the running into and going to the hospital. But I bring this up because Raymond dictates a lot of things, but he doesn't seem to dictate outcomes. He says, I want you to do this. I want you to do that. Things will happen by X, Y, and Z happening. But he's not saying like he's not to like he. You must. This guy must die. He doesn't say. He never says that. His intention is not to have him murder this guy. His intention is to do this dangerous thing and get himself right injured. Oh, no. Oh, no. What does does this, testing your theory? Yeah. What about him telling Robert that Robert cannot have children? That's sort of the, that's an outlet. Is that, I'm sure maybe that maybe that phrase is the wrong way. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I think it's I think it's it's very important. It's an important distinction that like, he never says go murder this guy, right? He says do this dangerous thing. And Robert says, but that might kill him is okay if that happens, that happens. Right. And actually to to make another point, like when Emma Stone's character has done the thing, she's hit this guy in his car at the same intersection enough to get herself in the hospital. He's not dead. RMF is not dead. He's seriously injured, but he's not dead. So then why do we think he takes him back for running over him with his car? Well, actually, as we're talking about this out loud, this might be my first, like kind of logical flaw with this because, like, he does, like, there is no reason to like, it's actually sort of flawed logic on Robert's part to go, oh, what I need to do is kill this guy, right? Well, no, what you needed to do is the thing Raymond told you to do, which wasn't kill this guy, but which was to do this dangerous thing. So in a way. Right. But that's why it's either it's either flawed logic in the story or your theory is incorrect. That's why I was testing your theory by going. But wait, is it that he can't, that he's not dictating the outcome because clearly he dictates the outcome by saying you can't have children. So there's that. But there is there's that constant question through this entire film, and definitely in this first piece where you're going, what exactly is being said here about humanity, about what we do, while we're having this conversation, what's coming up for me is just like the idea of of not understanding our or not being afraid to make a move no matter what the outcome will be. Right? But like also, what is he saying about that? Like what is the what is what is what is it saying? So you want to take you want to take a step back and be as frustrated as like Robert's character is. And we want to and we want to put this in that context of like, Raymond is a godlike figure. You can also say, like, God gives us a bunch of signals and we have to interpret them somehow, right? Sometimes we get them right, so just get them wrong. But like we we don't actually know what we're we know what was told. I don't know what the intention was. That's why I kind of felt at the end of this, nihilistic is the word that I use, but maybe that was a little harsh, I think. But there is a more a pessimistic isn't great either, but it doesn't feel like an optimistic ending to in any way, in any of these films. Maybe in the second one, but in any of these, I just feel like the ending is kind of like, yep. And we have to keep fucking going, right? Which is like, that's kind of it is like, what else do we have? We just we're these like these, these things that are just spinning around in circles trying to figure out how to make A to Z happen. And we have no idea what we're supposed to do, who we're supposed to be, and we're just looking for some. Yeah. You know, is it pessimistic from our point of view, though, or is it pessimistic from the character's point of view? Because I still feel like I disagree with you on that, because each of the main characters get what they want. So. So is it pessimistic? Is it pessimistic because you kind look at this situation and think like, that's a really? Yeah, sure. I get I get what you're saying. I was more like story wise. I was more asking what is what's the filmmakers sort of view on all of this. And so even though so you're right, it is me watching this movie and going, yeah, he like gets what he wants, but he doesn't actually to me, he doesn't actually get what he wants because what he actually wanted was to be set free and to make his own fucking decisions, and then realizes he can't do that. He doesn't know how, and he quickly squirrels back into, no, I must have. I don't think that's what he wanted. I don't think he wanted to be free. I think, you know, I think he wanted he wanted guidance. He wanted structure. He wanted. He wanted. He wants the regimented life. Yes, but but I think for a moment there, there was a part of him and. No, maybe I'm wrong, but for me, there was a moment there where it was like, oh, or maybe it's what I wanted for him, not what he actually wanted, which was, oh, you can you can figure out how to do this on your own body, go out onto your own. There's never maybe it's not that because he doesn't say that. He just he just doesn't want to kill a guy because it's like the moment. It's the moment he actually attained freedom. Though. He was like, he was immediate. He hated it. And immediately he was like, I know. So there's the theme. What? What do we actually think we want freedom. That's the question of this story and possibly the film. I think it's definitely a theme of like free will is an important part of the question. Because the moment that this character demands free will, he said he's, he's he said, no, you can't have it. Were you? If you want a little free will, you can have all the free will you want. Now. Now I'm walking away, says our God character. Right? I was like, if we're going to the biblical root, the God essentially always gives us free will, right? Like, I mean, I'm not religious, so I also think that but theoretically, like if you're if you're if you're talking about Jobe, if you're talking about Abraham, if you're talking about any of those classic ones. Yeah. All of those individuals have free will. It's just a matter of whether we're actually going to do what we are told in faith towards God. Right. Like Abraham has the free will to kill his child or not. Yeah. And he chooses to go about trying to kill or going to kill his his son because God told him to. Yeah. So in this one, he always had free will. It's just a matter of whether he follows Robert's guidance. And like Raymond's Raymond Raymond and why he's Robert. Yeah. So, another thing I was going to say is that as far as, like, the ending of this piece goes, the way I see this is, is the the that final moment is for Robert, for Jesse Plemons character is this profound catharsis because he, has guidance, and then he loses it when he demands a little bit of free will, and then he is just lost, lost, lost until he until he does this thing he never thought he would do. Murders this guy in cold blood. And when he arrives at Robert Raymond's house, the he is bawling his eyes out. He he he he can't even talk. He's crying so hard. And he and he hugs Vivian that the other woman in the movie, it is, compared to how he is the rest of this movie, there's never a moment before this where he, lets anyone inside of his little, like, well, his little, like, mask of everything's fine because the through most of this piece, everything is not fine for him. But any time. Everyone else. Oh, no. I'm okay. My. Oh, my wife's having a little thing, but I'm all. I'm fine. I'm just like, he just refuses to acknowledge any sort of grief or trouble on his one whatsoever. But at the end, it all just comes flooding out. And all of that is just like, he's just he's in fact, he's not. He's the first time he's not wearing a suit or like or like in like, clean clothes. He's like, he's his hair is shaved. I believe too. If or maybe I make it. Oh, no. Oh, that be making that up? He's in scrubs. Yeah. Because he was at the hospital. Hospital? Yeah. Yeah. Right. So he's sort of, like, laid bare in this way. Okay. So there's, there's an interesting I love this. I just love that, like, we're just going off a whole bunch of different things that and these different interpretations. Well that's why I love this film. Yeah. Always because like, I just there's a there's so much shit there, but it's so much shit that I am, that me specifically as a human is interested in. Whereas like, there are other directors or people who do things like this that I watch it and I go, what the fuck was that? And I will. There's something about his specific, bizarre exploration that like, I just eat it up. But with what you were just saying, fuck the three sense laid bare crying. He's insecure. Oh, the the crying, the the emotional. He finally ejects emotion. Essentially, if we finally see him as a real human having. Right. So, there's maybe a, yeah. The conversation there about, like, are we maybe, I don't know, is, was Raymond. That just makes me question like, was Raymond always trying to push him to burst? Maybe all of these things that he's having Robert do, including drugging his wife and telling him not to have babies and whatever was to push some emotional like reaction of like, can we go, oh, will you be a human? Because because Robert came to him wanting control, I don't know. There's there, there is that we don't ever see how the relationship began. Yeah, we know it's been going on for ten years because he says that. Yeah, it was Raymond actually doing all of these things to push him, to get him to have an actual emotional to to one, I think, make a decision on his own, which is what he ended up doing. I'm going to kill this guy. So it actually goes back to what we were first talking about, which is you're right. Raymond did not ask him to kill this guy, but this was a decision he made of his own volition. So actually. Okay, I'm going all the way back. All right? I am going back to what I think he actually wanted Robert when he told Raymond to fuck off, essentially. Or this is my line. I'm not going to cross it. He wanted to have free will, use free will. That's what he was doing by saying no line drawn in the sand. And then by the end of it, he actually uses his own free will to make a choice to kill this man. This is not something Raymond told him to do. Yeah, but he did it anyways. And then he had this human emotional breakdown, visceral reaction, and then is rewarded by it in the end. So all the things and that's it. It's it's it's it's another theory. No, no, I love it because I was thinking about this like all of the things that Raymond asked Robert to do in this, in this piece, are in a way, battering. Hey, you need to, your hair looks good this way. Eat this thing, gain a little weight. With the weight thing that was that was the other thing. The food and the weight. Weight was all over this movie and all three stories well pointed out. Yeah, well, let's get to it. I'm not, I don't know, in the second one, I know, and the third one. But yeah, that's interesting. But like, all of these things seem like, at least in a way, the things that like a, a well-meaning but very unsympathetic like, father figure would give you, right? Like, I want you to be better. You may be suffering under these edicts, but I want you to be better. I want you to be your best self. And so, like, there is this kind of and I think this actually goes back to the, the title of the movie there is, is some real fucked up kind of kindness, where. And I'm trying to make you better. I'm trying to like. But, yeah, it's it's real. It's real backwards. It's real dark and it's real controlling. Yeah. And with that, can we move on to our methods? For sure can, because I do think the second story is the one that throws a wrench in some of the stuff we've been talking about. But for me personally as well, like, even like while watching it, I'm like, they're like thinking back about watching him, like, I think I figured it out, but the second one is different in my opinion, because can I bring up one more point about the first one? Sure. So and this is a tiny, tiny detail that I loved. So at the intersection where, where they're crashing, where they go, this happens. Like, I guess you see it twice. There's a street sign, and the street sign is Perdido, which is, Spanish. Portuguese word for dog. No, no, that's Pedro Candido. Right? I looked it up just to make sure. No, because I was just. I just kept having that dog theme that was also. That's in the second movie, which we'll get to in a second, but, but I love that this sort of begins this movie. It's it's him at this, like an intersection crash with this car. And when I look that word up, it means a bunch of things, but including things like lost, ruined, defeated, and also just about to be killed. So there's this, like. Like when I saw that, I thought that was an interesting, an interesting, like, kind of subtextual idea that, like, this character is a bit lost and he's a bit adrift, and especially when he loses this kind of guiding light, father figure, he's extra lost, right. And it's also this intersection where he's about to murder someone, right? So, like, just the. I just thought that was. I'm in. This is this is me, loving. I love details and the little acorns. And I love any filmmaker who just wants to pepper them throughout their film. For me to go, oh, oh, you are really giving an entire package. You're not just, here's this plot. Well, and I think thing I think with, with storytelling, the way that this is told in these small vignettes and the worlds that he builds, that are always outside of the ordinary, even, you know, to start, it always starts for me with the way everyone speaks to one another, which is so stilted, like, yes, factual. There's no emotion with much of the of anything. So I so I think you have to paint all the details and when that's the version of storytelling. And one last one. Sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, I love it. So in the beginning, this podcast episode is meant to be as long as the movie. So. Okay. Yeah. They in the beginning, Robert gives them a gift. I'm sorry. Raymond gives them a gift. And the gift is a John McEnroe tennis racket that's broken. Oh, yes. And later on, we see that this is, part of a collection of sports memorabilia that, that he ends up selling. But did you notice something about the sports memorabilia that it's all not winning stuff. So like the Tonya the there's the yeah, there's a Tonya thing, but it's like third place in some thing. Yeah, yeah. There's a there's a scorched racing helmet from Eric Senna who like, I either died or it was in a terrible car crash. Right. Yeah. Who's who's like a Formula One racer. There was, what were the Michael Jordan's. There were some Michael Jordan shoes from. Just some game. Not a playoff game. Not a winning game. Just some game somewhere. I don't know, basketball enough to watch, but I love that this entire collection of memorabilia is, like, not the best stuff, but this, like, sexy or like, destructive thing is like like like almost losing things in this way. Also there goes the theme of like, perhaps we have to like lose ourselves or what we think is the thing that we need to actually find ourselves. That's a very yeah, which goes back to the like him having to run over this person to actually find the idea that you have to get all the way down here before you can kind of start climbing back up. Yeah. The Jordans were from like 1984, if I remember that much in the 80s. That's when Jordan kept running into the Pistons in the playoffs. And he never won in the playoffs. Okay, so I mean, it maybe might not have been one particular game, but it's an interesting era of Jordan because the 90s was when he was dominant. And when I think about Jordan, they do name called the game. I just don't yeah, well, enough to to understand it. I mean I know a lot about Jordan and I will say I did not think that it was any signif like it wasn't like it was like, oh, it was the 1996, like love thing with his movies, because everything is so sort of bizarre that you, you're just kind of going, what the fuck am I watching? Instead of recognizing that, like, everything is a detail. That's why it's so bizarre, because otherwise you could just easily be like, well, what? This scene didn't need to be there. That scene didn't need. I think they all it's all on or they're on purpose, or he builds these types of films that makes us think that everything is a detail. David Lynch has this very. But this is what I was thinking earlier is like David Lynch's one of my least favorite filmmakers. I know that is not a popular thing. So I, I, I've also had that. Yeah, I think that I have to go back and watch his films more. And it's not it's not because I just don't. There are some films that I like. Yeah, but I, I don't know, I think this style of acting more than anything for me with David Lynch films, I do understand it's a heightened, totally surreal style, same way Yorgos Lanthimos has this very different, but I like the style that Yorgos Lanthimos uses and the whereas David Lynch feels almost, soap opera esque. I don't know how to describe it. There's something very interesting because the acting in Yorgos films, particularly this one, is. Yeah, not the greatest. Yeah, it's much more close. Like a bad. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. What's interesting about your take on Lynch, in my opinion, yeah, yeah, yeah is that there has been several films, that one we have watched to you and I have even just talked about like as friends that I feel like are very Lynchian but like, yeah, that you love anybody. It's crazy to just think from a film perspective of like, it's like saying, oh, I really like, you know, a thriller from the 90s, but, like, I really dislike Hitchcock, you know what I mean? It just like the, like, the foundational things, I think I, I probably need to go back. I it's just it's been hard for me to go back and watch Lynch. No. And Lynch is definitely in a style of Yeah. Like I it's an acquired taste. I just think it's interesting that you like so many films. Well, that's what I'm saying because I think that I get I understand people who love Lynch. I understand the, the Easter eggs and the, the everything is, everything has a purpose. But for whatever reason, I don't actually believe that everything in Lynch films does have a purpose. It's interesting. What I was about to say about the quote, though, is that he has this famous quote where, you know, when you watch a Lynch film, everyone's like, oh, what does that mean? What does the street sign mean? Like blah blah blah. And he has this quote where he says, sometimes the curtains are just fucking blue. And like, because people watch it and like, oh, why did he choose blue for like these curtains and blah, blah blah. I think there's something about Lynch that that makes me believe that he then purposely throws in things that. But that could be argued about Yorgos as well to some extent, because that's just a personal reflection. Know they weren't talking about David Lynch movies. Really. But I will say that some movies, why don't I know? Yeah, I love movie podcasts. One of my favorite types of filmmakers is what, like like I just said a minute ago, ones who are just say every detail matters. I'm going to give them all to you. You're going to go find them when you want to. I don't think actually David Lynch really does that. No, and I don't think that every corner of his movies are like, ooh, what does that mean? I think a lot of times you're just like, that's cool. But put it in there. That's what I mean. Which is what I don't appreciate about about maybe I shouldn't maybe I shouldn't say Lynch movies. I should say fans of Lynch movies who are then like everything he does. And I'm like, really? I don't think so. But when I watch something like a Yorgos Lanthimos thing, I actually think, like watching this, I'm like, no, I kind of feel like all the details that are put in are there for a reason. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's also the same as well. Aren't you just a fan of Lynch like like you're talking about the fan? Yes, but I but you're right. But I'm right where it's very incorrect I do I like Blue Velvet is one of my I really do appreciate that movie and like I think that I would like one of his lighter films. Yeah. Yeah. Lighter films. Yeah. No, I just, I think I've, I missed a certain window of like, watching those films and like, going back, I don't know. Now. I just love that this film is actually bringing that. We've been talking about this film and how there are things within the film that contradict even our own thoughts on this film. Right. And how you are also contradicting yourself in talking about. But I contradict my self. No, I often I, I think it's fascinating and it's great. Yeah. That's one of the reasons I love so well, I and it's one of the reasons I love filmmakers who are are talked about often like this is because when watching a film, I want to go away and think about it. I want to have discussions about it. So whether I like I'm obsessed with the David Lynch film or not, the fact is, the man still makes films that are going to have a there's going to be a conversation about it, which is what I appreciate, and it'll make you feel something, which is also what I appreciate. Okay. Can we move on to the second? Let's do it. Okay. Can we talk about this before we move into the second one? What the hell does RMF stand for? You think the internet has some ideas? I forget what they are. No. What is your idea? What do you. What do you think I don't know, I think it's just I don't know, I don't I don't have a good answer to, like, what those initials might stand for. Besides, it's just some dude's name. I, I specifically did not because, like, I googled or like I looked up the film, and then one of the Google suggestions was what is RMF mean? And I'm like, I'm not going to look at it because I don't want someone out there is probably figure it out like or has a very compelling theory for what it may mean. And I'm like, I don't want to do that because I'm going to look it up right now. I'm not going to tell you unless it's interesting. Do you have an idea? No, neither do I. So let's go to what I mean. I mean, it's going to be it's gonna it would be Rick meets Felix. And what? We don't know, it's actually like Richard Martin Fernandez. It's like so, so. Or it's three Greek names. Yeah, yeah. The guy that plays RMF is actually a childhood friend of Yorgos Lanthimos. Which I appreciated. Like he and he's been in several of Yorgos Lanthimos films, but like, is not an actor outside of that. He just serves them. I have nothing to basis off of. This is just my own assumption. From watching several of his films, I feel like his film sets are probably fun. Like just like like want to? Yes. Like I would love. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he picks and I have nothing like he could be a complete dictator like David Fincher or something, for all I know. Like, I have not looked into this at all, right. But it feels like I feel like the same actors would not continue to go on working with him movie after movie if he. I think you're underestimating actors. Yeah, that's maybe true, because Kate Winslet was like, Fuck James Cameron. I'm never working with him again. And then she's an avatar. If you watch interviews with Yorgos and like, he's a he seems like a fun guy, but also like his every single one of his movies as dark and as fucked up as they are. There's always this weird, dark humor. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. And there's a playfulness throughout all of them. I'm assuming that's because that, like, that kind of permeates these, these sets in the creative process. Yeah, yeah. In these that there's a lot of just like and that's who he is. That's probably who he is. It's been my guess because like it again it just permeates all of these movies. Yeah. With that being said yeah. In part two, I'm just going to start with we're going to go all over the place, I'm sure, when talking about this one, but I'm going to start with my favorite quote from probably the whole movie, when a do we know Jesse Plemons character's name in the in the second one, Daniel, Daniel, when Daniel is talking to his therapist and he says that my wife cut off her finger and served it to me, he says the line, I didn't need it. The cat did. And it's so the delivery of that line is just so like, well, yeah, of course the cat did like, well, because he says it in this way, as if he's defending the idea of eating it even though he didn't like he says it like, well, I didn't need it. The cat did like like I wouldn't do such a gross thing the cat did. Don't worry about it. Like he says it as if he did not ask her to the finger. What I what I love about when he asks her is he says oh, okay. I was like, wait, did I drink? So pass it around the brandy. Oh, no. What? My favorite. Can I just finish? My favorite part about all of that is when, when he asks her to cut off her finger, says that that's what he would like to eat. He says, one of the fingers or the thumb? I don't, I don't care. It's whatever your or your choice, whatever. Which was so, there's there's such sad, sadistic stuff happening in this one. Well, so we do plot for that here. Yeah. I'll do a quick plot for this. Do it. This is a short about a guy named Daniel who's Jesse Plemons. He's a cop. His wife, Liz is like a marine biologist. Researcher. She's been missing her boat, disappeared in LA, and wherever she was doing boat stuff, and, and they're both. And, and her and her five cronies went out, did boat stuff that last. She's a shrimp fisher. And so his best friend is his partner. She comes back, he's got shrimp soup, shrimp salad. He's a cop. His best friend, his partner, his wife does boat stuff. So we got you hooked up at seven. And whatever his wife does boat stuff? Yeah. The episode. Yeah. He's distraught. He's weird. Eventually, she comes back and he, after a few scenes, he's like, that's not my wife. Something is weird. Eventually, he, gets it in his head that she's some imposter. And, due to a series of, things, he gets her to, to cut off her finger to feed to him. And she eventually, he eventually asks her to cut out her own liver to feed him because he's famished. And, and then by the end, his actual wife comes back. It's all very surreal. But that is the just a linear plot of this piece, right? I loved this one so much. Like my love for this one. Compared to the, I liked all three of them. I think the third one was my least favorite, which I'd be interested to hear what you all thought in terms of ranking the three. I loved this one. Kept me so engaged from the beginning to the end of like, what the hell is going on? But also in like, a mysterious way. Not necessarily like a surreal way, not like a what is happening more of like, what the hell is like going to happen. Sure. The, the suspense of like, is he the emotional roller coaster I went on with this one of like, I'm on his side. I'm not on his side. He's a terrible person. He's not a terrible person. Like, I was all over the place with this one. And I really appreciate it and love that journey as a viewer. I actually did not once think this guy is a terrible person. Not once, but I did think mental illness like so I was going, I was going, is this all happening? Sort of in his head? Is it real? Is it head? Is it real? Is head like, what's, what is. Yeah. So same posture. So I went the, the the point where I thought he was where he went to like the point where I went, he is a bad person is when he was telling, when he started to tell her to like cut off her finger. But then also in that therapy session he says, like she came downstairs and she started hitting her, her stomach in her face. And then we have the doctor scene, the doctor's appointment scene where she says that. So then I'm like, oh, he's abusing her. So that's why I'm like, he's a dude. I know, because that's what she said, right? But I thought, but I and I believe women that I'm sorry. Right, right. I immediately did not believe her. No, I, I thought, no, I believed Jesse Plemons character the throughout I think because this started off in such a weird note anyways. And the thing with her shoe size and there was little notes and I was like, no, this is not his wife. And he knows that. But what I was questioning is, is it not his wife only in his head, or is it actually not his wife? I didn't think about the, this entire thing. One of the through lines is here's this guy. Is he losing it? Is this actually his wife? Do you like, does the audience want to believe the delusion? Sorry. Is he does the audience like. Does the audience get the question? Is he diluted or not? Right. The evidence that's presented to us as an audience is given to us as if he is not, as if he is saying as if, like his wife is this weird imposter. But I didn't think about this until you said it. We never actually see where she gets these bruises. It's him. Yeah, who says I saw it now? He's now in the edit like he says it to the audience, or he says it to someone before she's a therapist. Yeah, but he says, I came downstairs and I saw her hitting herself. Yeah. And then the next scene is her in her gynecologist office, like. And she sees these bruises, so we don't actually know I immediately, which I never thought about until you say, well, I just immediately believed him only because he did this sadistic, weird, fucked up thing where he asked her to chop off her finger and she did it. So then. And yet, though it did, I did it. It had already happened. So she's thumb less when she's in the doctor's office. Yeah, okay. And so. So that. So then. So then I believed that she might do this thing to then because clearly now he's like trying to make her look crazy because he goes to his doctor and he's like, she cut off her finger and she tried to feed it to me. He does not tell him what actually had. I told her to do that. Yeah. And then so then is it possible that he told her to hit herself? Possibly. But my thought was she is now going to play the game, so she is not. She recognizes that he's going to tell people that she's gone crazy. So she's playing the game now by punching her own self and going, he abused me. But what makes you say even the score? What makes you think that she's playing a game now? Because that's what it's because I'm a woman. Well, but also let's not forget that in the in the plot of this piece, there is a second there is his real wife does come back. Yeah, unless we want to call that a delusion. If we take everything, as you know, I. Yeah. I don't think it is a rule. I'm saying the roller coaster I was on this question. I, I agree, I'm just saying looking back at all the things that she does, you think, oh, actually she was some sort of imposter, like, sure that he was correct in saying these things. And then the list of things is not short. Basically, when she comes back, everything she does is him questioning first it's her shoes don't fit. Second. Oh well, first it's like she loves the chocolate cake. Oh yeah, she said, oh, I want to eat all the cake and eat. Everyone's like, she doesn't like cake. Doesn't like chocolate. So a it's chocolate B it's the shoes don't fit anymore. See the song favorite song? Yes. My favorite song. She's really weird about them immediately going to fucking, which is not what they do. They take their sweet time to get into that vault. That was the most normal thing of like, all the things that she was like. I just thought it was a really funny interaction or reaction from the other three when she's like, okay, are we going to fuck? Oh, and they're like, because when we're introducing this idea that these, these two couples have how they swing. Yeah, yeah, they, they that like, it's all like, I don't know if we should act before Liz comes back. They're like, I don't know if we should talk about this again. Like, it's weird to me. Did I just say, I don't? She's into she's like, we know how the Larry is. They set it up. Let's watch this video. Yeah, yeah. All all he says is like, I want to see the video of us with Liz or whatever, and, like, we don't know what it is, but then it's like, literally a hard cut to. They're just their sex tape, like, yeah, that's wife swapping for some. Yeah. Yeah. Which they are then uncomfortably sitting through and watching. So funny because he also says I just want to watch a minute of it. Right. But then it also is clear that they've been watching it for much longer than a minute and say, can you, can you turn it down them into watching it? Because he's like, he just like cries. They're crying at the table, right? And they're like, okay, fine, we'll go. Well that's the other thing, too. Jesse Plemons character in this one too, is very deadpan or like, yeah, dry face. I'm gonna call it dry face, because you had talked about his break in. The first one is him sobbing. Sure, sure. I like the term dry face. You guys don't like it as much? No. It's fine, I'm sure. I'm looking at my notes to see what else we like, because there's so many weird things in this. Yeah, like, No, I'm just trying to think of the next thing to try and disprove you. Okay? Oh, my God, that's all. I just like talking is, So, like, the first thing that happens in this thing is he's, you know, this is long shot of him, like, getting his cereal ready, and then, like, his little cat, his black cat process in front of him, and then his phone rings and it's this, like, staticky. Nothing. And and we don't know what this is yet, but he's getting these weird, mysterious phone calls. And then after Liz does come, after a Liz comes back and he starts getting paranoid about his wife, he gets another one of these phone calls and which sort of again, signals to the audience that, like, there's something else is going on here. We're not quite we're not quite done with, like, her being back. It's not the end of this story. And I and I love that like in another movie, this might be the whole movie, which is. Is he crazy? Is he not? Is she real? Is she not? But, like, I think he front ends every bit of evidence to go. She's an imposter. She's an imposter. She's like side with this main character. Yes. Side with Daniel. In this case, yes. And then we learn that really? She's a dog alien. Yeah. Like which that actually when we were going back to, like, thinking of maybe what his sets are like or what he's like as a human. I totally could see anyone. But maybe him writing this and being. But like, what? What is she? I like dogs, dogs are weird, a dog. So maybe that's not a moment or that's not something to like, look too far into. Maybe that's so like, well, just so fun, I don't know. I love the credits where the dog dogs. Yeah, there's like the human. There's like the human roadkill on the list. Yes. And they drive around. Yeah. And then the German shepherd in the shower, just like. Oh, yeah. Or them fucking like a human. Like normal. Yeah. She was actually human. That, that that dream that she describes is sort of the, the key to that entire piece. Right. Because she tells this she's. I had this dream. We were in this place. You were there, I was she's talking to her dad, the Willem Dafoe character in this, in this piece, which is, you know, we we were all there, but life was it was the things were all backwards, like people were at. People were are people were animals and animals were people like dogs were in charge. And she just painted this whole scenario of this different place. She doesn't say that it was a dream. Yeah. She she says it was where they were held captive. Yeah. She says it was a dream. She starts by saying, I had this dream, but then she switches it and talks about how the dream reminded her of the place where they were held captive. So the dog thing is, is the way that she describes it. The dog thing sounds like that's the actual place she was held captive, not the dream. This is interesting because you have seen frames. You have seen this as a dream. But you you have seen this every weekend since it came out, correct? Yeah. And and I have only seen it once. Yeah. But I agree with you that I also took away that she was saying that it was the actual place. Yeah. So even if she, she frames the first part of I had this dream and then goes and the dream was like my the actuality of being there. This dream reminded me of where I was and then describes. We can go back to the tape, but the way that that monologue is she, she's she's very detective who she is. She is equating that like it was a similar to the place that she was at. But it is all framed in like the events that happen where the dogs are in charge. Yeah. Is framed as a as a as she's, she's recalling a dream. But I don't think so. Back to I swear, because I, I grew up on this three times because I knew that this monologue was really important. So, yeah. But, what I find really interesting about that is that we have from since she comes back. So she comes back from being on, like, lost on this island or whatever out at sea. A bunch of questions are asked to her, and occasionally we get these answers from her. And then the camera cuts to black and white versions of what actually happened. And like, for instance, she someone says, oh, what did you eat out there? And she said, oh, fruit fish. But then you cut to a black and white shot of her like eating someone's leg. Yeah. Like the guy that she came back with. Yeah. His leg. Because they say that he's. Yeah. But I bring this up because, like, there is stuff that happens out there that is she is not telling. There are secrets that she kept out there. Very much so. And and it also adds to this idea that, like, we really can't trust this version of Liz, of this person. And so even and I think that's the distinction I want to draw is that, like I do believe that she frames this monologue about her dream in The dog world as a dream. But we as the audience know that, like, there's some other like you've already been lying to us. You've already told us things that are untrue about where you've been. And that leads back to the idea that, like, yeah, maybe she wasn't this. Maybe she's this weird dog thing. I kind of go back and watch it because I swear to you, I was just like, I thought she lived in a on a dog island where these dog aliens were doing dog weird. Well, that's what made me start to think that she was a dog alien, because, like, also, now that she's a human, she could eat as much chocolate as she wants because. Because she said so many fascinating things. That monologue. And the one of them that the kind of relates to something. So a great movie, the amount of times we have now is a dog alien. So halfway through this piece, because it doesn't cooperate. And like there's a scene where they pull over this couple who are speeding or ran a red light or whatever, and, and it escalates as instances of the cops off and Duke and Daniel, like, there's a passenger in the car and the passenger gets out of the car because Daniel is freaking out. He's like, why do you have the cell phone to the other, to the driver? Whatever. But at some point, Daniel shoots this guy through the hand. Yes. And it's shocking, a shocking moment. But the most shocking thing is when he goes over and then licks the wound. Yes. And I only bring this up because in her monologue about the Dog Island, she talks about how the dogs were, like, pretty good to them and even though they like didn't, they only got like they didn't get the best food, they still got food. But she says even when we were mean to what they even went like, she says, they they licked our wounds and then like, like helped us out when we were when we were injured and stuff. And I really love that. Like, I love that again, that detail, that extra bit of like talking about dogs licking their wounds, licking their human pet's wounds before bandaging them. And then what is Daniel do when he shoots this guy through the hand? He looks like his hand. As if and I don't. I'm not saying that he's a dog, but that that symmetry is just so interesting to like to like to to to to put into this whole thing. How do we take that. My though I don't like, you know, like, well, what's also interesting about when his cop partner then is talking to the therapist and the therapist and he's like, I was really afraid for my life. And I thought he was going to kill all of us. And the doctor just ends by going, it'll all be over or he's okay. Don't worry about it. Something like that. That was so simple, that cut that off and I was like, absolutely no fucking doctor. I don't think it's really necessary. Slimmed the most film. Or is he saying that that's like, I mean, I don't know, there's just so much of this. I was like, is this a metaphor for America as, like the first one I was thinking like, is this a metaphor for the American dream and capitalism being a slave to it? And like we need, we feel like we need to do all these things in order to get what we want and attain. In the second one, like, there's clearly a critique of police and like police force in America and how things get pushed under the rug all the time and how cops out there probably don't actually get the mental health like services that they need. Or like there are so many different police forces out there that are like, oh yeah, he's fine. Like he just shot someone. He could go back out there. Yeah, he's fine. He's like doing that kid outreach thing next week. It's fine, as you know, and I, I kept looking at it from that like American perspective of like, what is this critiquing of Americans society? Sure. That didn't feel like that, that maybe felt like something that was in there, but it didn't to me feel like the point or the like intention or the it's it's sure. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But it was it's part of it's funny that you bring this up and I know you get your notepad out, but like, before I forget, there are, there are two characters who are side characters. There's a psychiatrist, and then there's the chief, the whatever, the police chief who is also the bartender in the first one, I believe. I believe that's the same actor. No. Are you sure? Yeah. I only believe that they didn't. Actually, he didn't look like I didn't look the same. He didn't sound the same. He sounded the same the way that he delivered his lines. And it's. I only clocked it, and I didn't actually go back and look. And when I looked up on IMDb, I don't think the whole cast is actually on the IMDb, which is strange. And so there was just one actor. And so then I was like, was he also the bartender? But I would have needed to go back in. But it was literally just the way he said his lines, which were the weirdest way to deliver lines I ever heard a human deliver lines. So there's so many that I can almost guarantee you that. So they filmed this in New Orleans. Or right are all around New Orleans. I can guarantee that everyone outside of those six people are probably locals. Yeah. Local actor. They just local, whatever that they just brought in. They didn't even necessarily feel like local actors to me. They felt like just like people I want you to. Yes, you're my person. So. But they felt like that is like that. Like that police chief and that, and that psychiatrist in the police department or whatever kind of both symbolize these sort of institutional characters, right? Like a kind of chief of police that's like person. And then the psychiatrist and they both have the most absurdly childish voices. Yes. And I don't know if that's just a critique on institutions and how it's sort of like, like almost, you useless. Yes. I mean, it can be a critique on how institutions are so they don't help us in any way. But I also like you shouldn't you can't really take them seriously. The specifically the psychiatrist. He looks like he's 15 and he told the jokes like this. And, and you're like, why are we there? He doesn't say anything useful. He's like, oh, you know, and also the cop or the the police chief, like, comes over. There's this really weird cut and like split second where he comes over and he goes, heard your wife was back and and, Daniel. Daniel. Right. Daniel's character goes, yeah. And he goes, okay, or something like that. He's like, let me know if you need anything or whatever. And he turns right back to like him. Like this tracking shot of, like, the police chief Walken. You think he's going to say something, and then he says, like, nothing. Yeah, I get your watch back. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And you're like, what? What was that? Wait, I just want to go back real quick to the monologue, because the end of the monologue, she's talking about how she had to eat the chocolate, but what she really wanted and what she kept holding out for. And this is what the important thing to me that I clocked was what she keeps holding out for. And she specifically says, I didn't eat, I wouldn't eat, I wouldn't eat, I wouldn't eat, which then we watch her husband doing her her thorough slam. Yeah. Yeah. So she. And then she's like, I because I was holding out for the lamb. But everyone. But what I realized is that, like, every everyone gets the lamb. So essentially she goes, what I learned was it's better to eat the thing that's available all the time than the thing that runs out early every day and I mean every day. So I kept thinking about that. And this actually ties into the theme of the first one, too, which is like, we keep waiting for the thing that never comes. Instead of seizing the opportunity of what's right in front of us, which now that I'm thinking about it, you could go back to the very first one, too, and tie in. What we were just talking about was like, he never seizes the opportunity to go past his threshold point and, like, do the thing. Instead, he just I don't know if that's something. The way he said. But I appreciated this, that I appreciated this journey. You just went on. I just want I feel like I'm doing that every time I think of the film again, I'm like, that's what I've been saying. Happy. I think it's I think it's a lot. We haven't gotten to the third piece yet, but I think it's a little bit of a trap. And I we've all tried to do this. I think it's a little bit of a trap to try to apply the same thing to all of them. Right? I think it's the kinds of kind of I think it's all different, like views and corners of the, of similar ideas, but I think they're all very different on purpose almost otherwise. Otherwise what's the why, why, why do you agree? Because I think they are really focusing on different aspects of stuff, in fact, like from like if you think of the two main characters are Emma Stone and Jesse Plemons and all three of them, the first movie has them sort of meeting, and maybe there's romantic undertones. The second movie is them married, and the third movie is them kind of dissatisfied with each other. They're not romantically involved. And, you know, we haven't gotten together, like, almost business partners in a way. But the way that she the way that she ends that monologue about the dream, or about the about the running out she the it's it's it's interesting phrasing because she says something like, what is it you quote again? She says, better to eat the thing that's available all the time than the thing that runs out early every day. And then she stops and she goes and I mean every day. And the idea runs out every day can also be applied to my husband who leaves for work, who runs out the door every day while I'm stuck at home because I don't think, oh, no, I guess she's a biologist. She has a job. But like there, it could just as easily be applied to a person who's like and who's like kind of leaving and not there for sure, which I thought was interesting, but also the it's funny that she mentions the lamb is the one thing she wanted because it's alluded to or it's mentioned earlier that, like Liz's best dish is this roast lamb. Lamb. Yes. She makes and is it this one or is it the third? No, it's the third one that she doesn't eat fish. Yes at all. And I fish for one. Yes. Yeah. But that so this is another one I think where like just the food is a running thing and everything. And I think that to me, because this movie is called Kinds of Kindness, there's always a thing where it's like, you have to eat, you haven't eaten. You know, that's like the first thing you're granted, you know, like your grandmother says when you come in the door or, or there's this thing of like, oh, you're putting on too many pounds, right? There's like weight. Food is a whole fucking oh, when the first one he wants to put on weight. Yes. And that is the weight situation in the second one. Oh yeah. What is the weight of things like one. Because you said weight is in all three. I think maybe I was actually just thinking about the size of her foot. I don't know if it was a weight thing. Because I also, I'm also going to ask you this question when we talk about the third one, because I don't remember weight and I have an answer for the third. Yeah, okay. Answer for the third one as well. Well, yeah. What was my answer for this one. Oh, she gets the, she gets put on the they're weighing her. They're doing the measurements for the woman that there's a little weight that this person. That's right. That's which is a really. Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. But food. Food in the middle one is like, I want to feed you. And then him being like, I won't eat. So food is almost used as this weapon is the maybe the wrong word, but it's like, it's like it's like a, it's a of your kindness. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. Do we move to the third one? Well, I didn't say last question to wrap up the second one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I'm curious and I don't think there's a right answer. Do we think that his wife actually came back. And I'm not just saying is it a delusion as in like there was no one actually at the door or there was someone else at the door, but also, is this another dog alien? Like, do we actually think it's her? I think that it's her. Her. And I think that because of the phone thing that you alluded to earlier, I think we keep hearing her on the phone and she calls even after Dog Person is there. And the second time that she calls, then then his phone is missing, right? And he's like, Liz, what'd you do with my phone? You had my phone, right? Because she she, you one assumes that it's because, like, she's getting it, he's getting phone calls from his actual wife, and she wants to then hide his. Sorry, I'm just going through the stuff again because it just keeps popping in my head. So the first one, Jesse Plemons character, pushes through, and he he does something. He crosses a limit. He thought he has to come out the other side and is rewarded for it kills someone. He does that in the second one as well. We don't know if he necessarily won in the second one. He asks her to cut out her liver, which he desires. She does it herself, yes, but he knows well. Yeah, okay. You're right. It goes back to the same. It goes back to a similar theme in the first one. No one asks him to murder anyone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He says, do this thing. Yeah. And then then consequences will come of it. Yeah, but that's not the point. The consequences of the fact. Yeah. Yeah, I really thought that. I mean, I was going really dark with this one. I really thought that that was his real wife. And like, this was going to be like a giving tree style, like his wife gave everything, like literally ended up giving her life for him. But then she showed up and then I was like, oh, thank you for that. Yeah, that was surprising to me. I did not expect that at the end. I thought it was going to be like the cops and they're going to see this dead woman, and then they're going to be like, oh, well, no, that would be too realistic. Also, they wouldn't do anything about it because it would. They'd be like, oh, wow. Okay. Well, she slipped and fell, Yeah. Slipped and fell. And her liver get that. Okay. Moving on to the third one, which is, No, hold on, hold on. I think it's where I have more notes. Chris is reading the trivia section of IMDb us right now. Well, I wanted to, like, I wanted to I wanted to. There is a big theme of what dogs are a part of this one specifically, but more importantly, this idea of like the, the, the the the dog and the dog's owner, right. Like, so you can kind of see this metaphor and the idea that, like Liz in this case is the dog, both we think she was a dog, like a secret dog, but also she is made to behave like a dog in that, like the dog will do anything for its owner. There's a list including her. It's including suffer harm, at the hands of the owner because the owner says so. Which I find fascinating. But like, this is also something that sort of ties in with the first movie wherein, some, some owner is telling the subservient one what to do and that it's not just and it's not just like domination, but it's also necessary, like your dog needs you to tell it what to do. Otherwise it's all in the system and the the world that we live in. Yes. Yeah, yeah, dogs obviously can run free in the wild and stuff. Sure. So could humans. Yeah. We weren't in the if we were socio. Yeah, yeah. But but I just find that I find I think the middle movie here is super important because I think a lot of its themes radiate throughout all the pieces of this movie. And I think it's, I think somewhere in the embedded in it is, I don't want to say the answer, but like but it is, a lot of the themes in this one just sort of, again, just radiate out through and, and in a way that, in a way that is super important. There's a line that I wrote down that Liz must say. I don't know who she says it to, but she says, Danielle never can decide. Oh, yeah. Which also really made me think about I clocked that Jesse Plemons character in the first movie who can never decide. Right? I think there's a lot of connection between these three pieces. As different as they are, there's a lot of connection, obviously on purpose because of the part of the same movie, but like a lot more connection than, than is sort of on the surface. Yeah. That's all good. Bad, bad good is an ex nihilo production. The original theme music done by Jen Star Hacker find her at Hacker Sound music.com. Opinions expressed are solely that of the speaker and do not necessarily reflect the views of any entity they represent.